Recovering From Being a "Nice" Guy Alex Guest Posts 51 Comments You have listened to her complain about the jerk who treated her badly countless times only to watch her go out with him again and again. All of your selfless acts fall by the wayside only to hear about her mistreatment the following week. You’re left in the pit of despair and confusing as the mantra nice guys finish last repeats in your head. When will she wake up? When will she realize that there is a nice guy who will treat her the way she deserves to be treated sitting right here? She will never realize this because you aren’t, in fact, a nice guy. Appearances can be deceiving, and the nice guy act is one of the biggest deceptions around. On the surface, nice guys appear to be selfless, kind, caring human beings but this is far from the truth. Beneath their generous acts and humble words lurks something darker. A dark side few nice guys care to admit because nice guys aren’t really that nice. Here is a paraphrase from the book No More Mr. Nice Guy” : Nice Guys avoid conflict. Nice Guys hold contempt for women. Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority. Nice Guys lack conviction in their opinions or beliefs. Typically they will wait and see what the popular opinion is before taking a stand. If a rift happens in the group they will wait to see who is winning before taking a side. Nice Guys lack loyalty.They develop a chameleon like type of behavior when interacting with others. If one member of a group doesn’t like another the nice guy will take on the belief of whoever they around. One day they will talk badly of one member and the next they will reverse their opinion. Nice Guys are dishonest. They hide their mistakes and say what they think people want to hear. They will say pretty much anything to gain the approval of others. Nice Guys are secretive. They are so driven to seek approval that they will hide anything they believe might upset anyone. Nice Guys are manipulative. They have a hard time making their needs a priority and have difficulty asking for what they want clearly, so they feel powerless and result to manipulation. Nice Guys are controlling in order to keep their world smooth. Nice Guys give to get and expect some kind of reciprocation. Nice Guys are passive-aggressive. Nice Guys are full of rage, a rage that tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times. Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries, and instead feel like victims. Nice Guys are attracted to people and situations that need fixing. Nice Guys are terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person’s problem. Nice Guys form relationships with partners who are projects or diamonds in the rough. And Nice Guys tend to swing back and forth between the nice side and the dark side. Reframing Being a Nice Guy If you have found yourself in any of these qualities odds are that you are a nice guy. While nice guys do have some redeeming qualities overall they lack mature emotional balance. Their overall theme in life is one of seeking approval. They want everyone to like them because on a fundamental level they don’t like themselves. They reach out for the approval of others because they aren’t content with their own. They want to be liked by everyone but the truth is that NO MATTER what you do NOT EVERYONE will like you. You can’t please the entire crowd so it’s not worth the effort. There are some people that will despise you because of your desire to be liked. You are playing a game that you can never win. Every time you try to be a nice guy at the cost of your integrity or your honesty you are hurting yourself. It may be a small little lie or agreeing with something that you don’t truly believe, in but you are just making your situation worse. Honesty, integrity and courage are at the core of confidence and high self-esteem. Every time you sacrifice one of these principles you are chipping away at your self esteem. Do this long enough and there will be nothing left. Recovering From Being Nice Guy The first step is to become aware of your nice guy tendencies. Awareness is half the battle in conquering any issue. You can’t fix something that you don’t know is broken. Be aware of every nice act that you preform and understand the real motivation behind it. Ask yourself did I do this just to be nice or to be liked? Did I put the needs of others above my own just for their approval? Was my nice gesture genuine or was it done with the intention of getting something in return? On some level you understand what your motivation behind every nice act is. You know that you are doing it for approval. Your mind re-enforces these nice acts in two ways: 1. Rationalizing your behavior 2. Judging others for not doing what you do The most common rationalization for your behavior that your mind will create is I’m just trying to be nice. Every lie, manipulation and bending over backwards for people will be rationalized by this thought. A nice guy judges others for not being a nice as him. A martyr has a load of resentment towards people who don’t do the things that he does. They create an arrogance and draw part of their self esteem from having a better than you type of attitude. If you look deeper into this judgment you will find jealousy. They are jealous of the people who have boundaries, aren’t self sacrificing for others and can get what they desire. They wish they could do the same but would run the risk of losing the validation they so desperately crave. If you look at how much a nice guy judges a jerk you will see mass amounts of jealousy. He judges the jerk for the way he treats the girl, but in reality he wishes he could have her. He can’t be with her so he resorts to bitterness and taking a holier than thou route. The second step is to drop this habit. This step can be very difficult because some of you have been practicing nice guy behaviors for most of your life. The external validation that you receive from others can become very addicting. Here are some ways you can put an end to this nice guy act: -Start saying no to people. Write out a list of things that you do simply because you want to be liked and stop doing them. You should end up saying no to people far more than you say yes. It’s not wrong to do for others but only if it’s done on your own terms. Help people out but only if you truly want to and without the expectation of getting something in return. -Get your priorities in line and never break them. The needs of others should come fourth on your list of priorities below your health, integrity and your mission. -Make honesty and integrity a priority above being liked, it will help you sleep better at night. Also become more open with your opinion and more upfront with people. -Learn to draw your self esteem and approval from within. Being liked by others isn’t a bad thing but it becomes one when it’s your only means of feeling good about yourself. -Develop a spine and start to stand up for yourself. It’s impossible to truly love yourself and draw self-esteem from within if you are letting people walk all over you. Every time you let someone treat you badly your self esteem drops just a little bit more. -Adopt the frame of hey, I’m not for everyone.Get used to the fact that whatever you do not everyone is going to like you. It’s ironic that once you let go of trying to get people to love you the more love you will draw into your life. -I trust the universe to supply my abundance and prosperity. That nagging voice in the back of your head will be right when it tells you that being more authentic and honest will cause most of your friends to go bye bye. They will be upset over losing their doormat and nice guy friend who will do anything for them.Get over it and trust the universe to supply you with friends. There will be a transition period were you will lose a good bit of your friends. By weathering the grace period you will allow better and more genuine friends to come into your life. Your life will be filled with more abundance than you can handle. Try a 30 day challenge in order to change your nice guy behaviors. Take 30 days and completely change your behavior. Make a commitment for 30 days to standing up for yourself and not being so nice. Tell as many people as possible so you are forced to keep this commitment. If you have a nice guy friend show him this article and make him your support buddy during this 30 day challenge. Going full out for 30 days straight will help you change your behavior and beliefs on a deep level. At the end of the month it will be extremely difficult to go back to who you used to be. The new “not so nice guy” behaviors will be programed and ingrained into you. You will be taking a large risk by dropping the nice guy act and it may feel safer to keep things just the way they are. So if you are satisfied with the fact that the only time a woman gets wet around you is when she is crying on your shoulder then I suggest that you continue on that path. But if you aren’t happy with your life or your success with women then I think it’s time for a change. To get further help riding yourself of the “nice” guy within download Seduction Community Sucks from the sidebar on the right. Join over 25,000 subcribersDownload your FREE copy of Seduction Community Sucks now and get in-field videos, subscriber-only articles, and exclusive podcasts delivered directly to your inbox If you're ready to become the kind of Man that attracts confident and in-demand women without trying, then I have a gift to start you on that journey. Seduction Community Sucks is your 159 page kick-start to becoming the kind of Man that makes women go weak at the knees. Get your FREE copy, as well as access to other subscriber-only articles, podcasts, and video footage, now. Get your FREE ebook, hidden articles, in-field videos, and exclusive podcasts here: 51 Responses Anonymous December 5, 2011 It just brought my 30 years of being nice guy attitude right in front of my face…. A great eye opener for me… Hope it changes my life…. thanks a ton!!!!!! Reply Zach December 6, 2011 Read Seduction Community Sucks (for free!) from the top right of this page! Then get Endgame and possibly do the Get Real and Be Powerful programs. have fun man!! Reply Someone December 8, 2011 Apparently I’m not a Nice Guy, do not fit that description at all save for maybe 1 or 2 of those rarely. Reply Zach December 8, 2011 I think the only thing you need to know if you’re a “nice guy” or not is if you consistently have women tell you they “just want to be friends.” that’s it. if you get that a lot, you’re a nice guy. if you don’t, then most likely you aren’t and you’re aware enough to see if women are attracted to you or not. Reply Someone December 9, 2011 I don’t think I’ve ever been told that. I’ve had a girl tell me I was in her friendzone, but it was mutual thing, totally not interested in her either. Still, she has a huge rack, and I’m constantly teasing her about it. *Accidentally touches one of them* “Hey you just touched my boob!” “Was it this one?” *Touches it again* Nope, not a nice guy. Archie August 16, 2012 Hello there, I chanced upon this “Nice Guy Syndrome” while reading stuff on the urban dictionary. As read what makes up this personality, it felt like a mirror image of me. I have always wondered why I have always been nice but single and now in my 30s. I am with a lady right now and I have already been too nice. I have always placed her needs ahead of mine to no avail. I love her and wonder if it is too late. Wish someone could help me get rid of the fear that keeps me pleasing all people. I am sick and tired of living like this. Tell me whatever u can. It really feels like dying. Reply canadianniceguy July 24, 2016 i’m going through this problem right now and its horrible. did you ever get an answer? Reply Nicolo September 21, 2012 What a great article. This is me. This is fucking me. I just want to make this happen for me, I can’t stand that conflict inside myself no more. It’s so difficult but I want try this so badly . I need a change , and I want to try it. Reply Leigh (LoGun) September 21, 2012 Great to hear mate. It takes balls to admit that to yourself and even more to admit it to others. What are you going to do about it? What action are you going to take? Reply Nicolo September 22, 2012 Yesterday I took the first step. When you say NO to someone, and they ask you “Why?”. DO NOT invent a story. Just say “Do I need to justify myself for my choice?”. This is very difficult. Stop justifying your self. If you make a decision you don’t have to give excuses, because you feel sorry for hurting others. You’re not. This is just a small step but it was very hard for me. I felt like an ass in that moment. But now I’m happy because i respected my self. You have the sparkle of god inside you, respect yourself. Nicolo September 23, 2012 Again I NEVER had a problem with women. Never. For me it’s NOT a problem of women. It’s a problem that I tend to do/say what I don’t want in order please other people (It’s much more comlpex than this .. but you get it). I don’t know why I do this. But this is a repeating pattern behaviour that my girlfriend made me notice when I’m talking with clients,friends,parents,everybody…. If you experience this conflict. You’re welcome to share your opinions. Leigh (LoGun) September 23, 2012 There’s a very simple reason why you’re doing this – you’re getting something out of it. It’s this ‘something’ that’s driving you to keep hiding what you really want and feel and continue to live your life based on other peoples opinions. Have you read Endgame yet? Understanding what you’re really looking for and learning how to get it in a way that doesn’t rely on other peoples opinions is the purpose of the entire book. Nicolo September 23, 2012 Thank you Leigh, I don’t know that book. Who’s the author. Leigh (LoGun) September 23, 2012 Clearly my marketing efforts are highly ineffective. I’m the author. I wrote Endgame to help guys in your specific situation. You can read more about it here: Endgame Let me know what you think. Leigh Jay December 8, 2012 This article may refer to some nice guys but for most nice guys it’s false. Most nice guys come from, get this, two parent homes and get this: they actually don’t care if they get anything in return. Lol. No one is that deceptive. I’ve been researching this topic and I have seen so much bullshit excuses. Hell if the nice guy gives you stuff, then if the girl is smart, she’ll appreciate it. Would a bad guy do it? Doubt it. Some say they are “boring”. How? Because they don’t hurt them? Usually the nice guys are hardworking and have good jobs and take vacations, whereas bad guys usually lose their driver’s license and can’t hold a job. Look like your boyfriend or temporary husband can’t get around much. Yawwwwwwwnnnn boring stuck at home or walking around thw streets. Boring. Some say they aren’t confident. How is that? Most of the time a nice guy won’t change for a girl. He likes how he is. Isn’t that confidence? A comic book fan obviously doesn’t care what people think about his hobbies. That’s confidence. Oh but they’re pushovers right? Don’t have an opinion right? Bs lol. No one can hide their opinions for that long. Unlesssss……the girl didnt stick with him for that long. That’s her fault. Oh but they’re not aggressive and not protective? This is the 21st century. No cavemen exist in america lol. So what do they need to protect you from? Hitler? The taliban? Oh wait u must be talking about that big bad ex. Well restraining orders do exist. Next….. Oh but they’re shy. Wow i never knew that EVERYBODY was outgoing. You’re saying that you want every guy to be outgoing. Correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt that be BORING? you know, if every dude was just alike? See, it works both ways lol. Girls maybe if you spend time with that shy guy who I will go out on a limb here and say probably likes you more than a bad guy will. So ok the nice guys dont need to change and girls need to make better decisions. Grow up and please shut up. Reply Leigh (LoGun) December 9, 2012 I think you and I have VERY different experiences with ‘nice guys’. In my experince, most nice guys are nice because they want something in return. The CRAVE something in return. They’re nice so women will like them. They’re nice because they’re afraid of conflict. They’re nice because they just don’t have the balls to stand up for what they believe in. But that’s just my expereince. To be completely honest, from the limited amount you’ve written, it sounds as though you’re more interested in finding an excuse for being a nice guy than eliminating the issues that come with it. When you’re ready to make the change and start getting the success you want, please come back to us because I’m sure we can help you get where you want to go. Reply Richard May 15, 2017 AWESOME ! #thankyou #wellsaid Reply Jay December 14, 2012 Leigh that’s incorrect. Look, i’m a nice guy who has had success. Unless you’re saying that bad guys are really nice guys, which they aren’t, then well, apparently there aren’t any nice guys in the world, you know, since nice guys aren’t really nice. We are in hell then if that’s how you think. My points that I made are exactly right and you know it. Unconfident is an excuse. Shy is an excuse. Nobody NEVER has an opinion, and nobody is THAT much of a pushover. Lol get real, we all know that bad guys win most of the time for two reasons: 1. They’re usually pretty dumb. The kind that has to cheat his way through school and can’t hold down a job. Girls, mostly immature ones, go after these guys because THEY MAKE THE GIRLS LOOK GREAT. Why go for a guy who has his stuff together? Girls are simply intimidated by the nice guys. 2. Yes indeed, a lot of nice guys are shy. But like I said before, of course some guys are shy, if there weren’t any, then wouldn’t society be BORING if not? Girls you actually make a first move every once in a while. You can break these guys out of their shells. Kinda like a……PROJECT! Lol it’s funny how these terms work both ways, isn’t it? Single motherhood is at an all-time high, because women don’t think anymore. Well, not until it’s too late. I have a buddy of mine who asked tons of pretty girls out when we were in high school. This dude wasn’t having success pretty much just because he wasn’t a drunk or partier. Couple of years later, I introduced him to my gorgeous younger sister after I told her how he was. Later on, these same girls who rejected him were now trying to get with him but most of them are single moms now. He told them no, well because him and my sister are still together. By the way, a lot of those girls have visible bruises on them too. Drama city. Reply Leigh (LoGun) December 14, 2012 Thanks for your response mate. You seem very certain that there is one right view of the world and you have it. If that’s the case, there’s no point in having a discussion about this or trying to clarify where I’m coming from because neither or us is going to grow form that. From the limited amount you’ve written, it appears as though you have a lot of rules, excuses, and people to blame. This is something that doesn’t form part of my reality and something I try and help guys move away from. If you’re a nice guy with success, then I wish you all the best. You obviously don’t need our help, guidance, or support. If, at any point in time, you feel as though your paradigm isn’t working for you, then please feel free to come back and have a chat with us. We’re always open to helping guys who’re looking for a solution to the challenges they’re facing. All the best, Leigh Reply Evan January 6, 2018 Lol it’s 6 years later and… This guy right here. Wow. Reply Tothersider January 24, 2013 A major problem I have with the articles on this website is a lack of recognition of where basic social skills end, and pandering begins. Social interaction is full of ritual and escalation of intimacy. “How’s you’re week been?” “Still hot outside?” That sort of thing. Banal, but necessary if you want to build anything much with most people. When do you switch from being agreeable to calling someone on their bullshit? Therein lies the key. I think many of the people this article is having a go at are simply unable to change modes, and just continue in the agreeable vein that means basic conversation is not derailed. In any case, I don’t think it’s as simple as this article makes out. Try throwing social skills to the wind and just talking about yourself and things you’re interested in, see how far that gets you. Reply Leigh (LoGun) January 24, 2013 Why do you NEED to follow those rituals? Where does this need come from? If I don’t want to know how someone’s week’s been then I don’t ask them? If I know that it’s still hot outside, I don’t make a comment on it. Have you ever considered that sticking with these rituals may actually be what’s keeping you from building something real with the people you want to build something real with? Yes, there are a lot of people who follow these basic social patterns because they think they’re supposed to. But they’re also the kind of people that I’m not attracted to. My fiancee is the perfect example of this. She doesn’t follow these rituals. In fact, she dispises these rituals. She see’s how fake, insincere, and pointless they are and doesn’t follow them. If she doesn’t want to know how your day has been she won’t ask. If she doesn’t really care how your holiday was, she won’t ask. And if I asked her those kinds of questions, just out of pure ritual when we met, then we wouldn’t be together. These rituals are only as necessary as you make them. There’s no law you have to follow, there’s no rules you must stick to, other than the ones you create in your head. If they’re working for you, great, then keep going with them. But also take timeout to see if they may actually be causing you more problems in the long run. Reply Tothersider January 30, 2013 Basically, because they’re basic social skills, Leigh. If I can analogise using sex – if you jump straight onto the clitoris before even opening with a kiss, followed by some foreplay, it’s usually a faux pas. There’s also a sequence of escalation and trust when talking to strangers. You do not usually leap straight onto beliefs before commenting on the immediate environment. Yes, you can skip or short circuit this sequence, but it’s reliable and should be part of basic knowledge when dealing with strangers of any sort. I suggest reading up on it – there’s an article for you in there. And I think your partner is perhaps missing the point – it’s the conversational equivalent of establishing trust, then building further. There are parallels elsewhere, such as when flirting you might start with lightly touching a hand, then arm, then maybe playing with hair, before going in for a kiss. This is an escalation of intimacy. If you go straight for the kiss you might find the person balking, just as if you immediately share your thoughts on a political issue without preamble to sound one another out. Please don’t dismiss this stuff out of hand, because I think your readers could really benefit (especially the aspergers types who can see no point to it, then wonder why they get short shrift). Leigh (LoGun) January 31, 2013 I’m completely with you on this idea of taking things one step at a time. I agree with the analogies you’ve made. It appears as though the point we’re disagreeing is the point about what’s actually necessary. You mention that the point of doing this is about building trust. So, I have a question for you: Who would you trust more: 1. The guy who appears to be asking you questions about the environment and commenting on the weather out of routine when you can really tell there’s more below the surface that he wants to say but is holding back 2. The guy who says what he’s thinking and you can tell that this is a real and genuine expression of who he is and what he’s experiencing at the moment Now, I’m sure that there are women who would answer guy 1. I know there are because I’ve met them and interacted with them. But, they’re not the women I’m interested in. The women I’m interested in would unanimously choose guy 2. I know this because this is how I interact with women and the women I want respond very positively to this. I’ve started conversations with women by saying how beautiful their breasts look. I’ve started conversations with women by saying how crazy their perfume drives me. I’ve started conversations with women by saying how incredible their arse looks in their jeans. And then gone on to have very ‘fun’ relationships with them. And these weren’t just in crowded nightclubs with drunk chicks. This happens in the middle of the day in the street. So, I guess what I’m saying is that yes, there women who would agree with what you’re saying. And if your statements are a reflection of your life, then I would suggest that they’re the kinds of women you interact with frequently. In saying that, there are also women who would prefer the opposite and they’re the kinds of women I’m interested in. These women tend to be stronger, more confident, more real, and more authentic and they’re the women I want. So, what I’m saying is that in my experience, we’re both right, its just that my approach is far better suited for my life. I guess, as with anything, you need to know what you’re looking for before you can find the most suitable way to achieve it. One more thing, I’m in on way suggesting that you should never comment on the environment or ask commonly asked questions. I’m just suggesting that if you ask them out of ritual when you don’t really want to and don’t really care about the answer, then you’re going to face issues. alex March 16, 2013 Hi, I’m in a happy relationship now, but always wanted to figure out how to solve a problem I had for many years. I had a lot of rejections, LJBF crap etc. in the past. You would assume I was a “nice guy” with low self confidence, but it was hardly the case. I am tall, athletic, do fitness regularly and consider myself good looking. Been focused all my life on the stuff I’m doing and this is a lot of stuff – guitar playing (have parts in a published CDs), guitar making – various musicians play them now in front of thousand people, have masters in science, doing my PhD now, have several appearances on a TV screen (international programs), have several businesses (some very successful) and recently started a book, involving expeditions around the world. The list is not full but you get the idea. Also I have great sense of humour (I’ve been told) and usually I’m a party leader. Sounds great ??? NO… The scenario is always the same. I meet a girl. Initially it is fantastic. She is really interested, we are having a good laugh, but if for whatever reason we do not have sex on a first date, it never happens. The girl usually pulls away as soon as she starts knowing me better. I usually let her go… I managed to ask two girls many years later why did they do that ? The answer was the same. They replied in general – “I was NOT in you league… I did not know what YOU are looking for hanging with me” . Probably they assumed I was after sex only. Probably it WAS the case. I’m not sure what I’m after for a while anyway… The question is – could I do something to prevent this scenario to happen, without “downgrading” myself? That’s what puzzles me for years. Could not find any answers in the “seduction community” books and blogs. Any ideas ? Thanks Reply Leigh (LoGun) March 17, 2013 Hang on, I’m confused here. Are you saying that women don’t feel like they’re in your league or that they don’t feel like you’re in their league? Reply alex March 17, 2013 They feel THEY are not in my league… Leigh (LoGun) March 17, 2013 Oh, I see. Well there could be two issues going on here. One is your choice of women. In my experience, women can feel like they’re not in your league if they don’t think they’re attractive enough. Unfortunately, you can’t do much about about this one other than finding higher self esteem women. The other one is how you’re interacting with them. Women can feel like they’re not in your league if you don’t make it clear why you like them. If you don’t tell them what you like about them, why you like it, and encourage them to do it more, they can feel like they have nothing to offer the relatoinship. To me, it sounds like it’s more number 2 but it could be partially number 1. Thoughts? alex March 17, 2013 Leigh, you are spot on with the reasons, also you are spot on involving the type of women in the equation. You just confirmed my thoughts. As there is no woman without any insecurities, it is usually a mixture of 1 and 2 (predominantly). Unfortunately, even I know what the issues are, it does not help. Here is the problem in more details: You would expect that I usually target high value women, in my terms – attractive and intelligent. In general I can put them in 3 main categories – with 1. (unrealistically) high self esteem, 2. (unrealistically) low self esteem and 3. down to earth, realistic self esteem. 1. are usually high maintenance b**ches – I really do not want them. 2. are the ladies I usually have long relationship with. It is very easy to communicate to somebody the fact that they are valuable, because they really are, just not been aware about it. Unfortunately, this type of relationship is unbalanced, and their insecurities very often are real pain… The group I really like but fail to get in relationship with is 3. These women are intelligent, fully aware that they are not perfect, but also fully aware that they are high value ones. To make the situation even more complicated, they are usually stuck with a boring job/partner, they have a lot of potential, but they have not achieved anything important (in their terms) in their lives. And here is the issue. How can I communicate to these ladies what I like in them and to encourage them to do it more without lying and without falling in the traps of being a “nice guy”? Possible scenarios – I tell her she is attractive and intelligent. Big deal – she knows it and she gets hit with this 10 times a day by random nice guys. I tell her she’s got a lot of potential. Again, she knows it and also, this implies that her current life sucks. I tell her I love what she really wants to do and I support her to get it done. Even I’m genuine, she thinks I’m changing in order to be liked (nice guy approach). With my style of life, why the heck I would be interested in her handmade shell jewellery… and that’s even more confusing for her. I leave her to talk and listen (I genuinely enjoy this) about her issues and things she likes. She thinks she bores me to death (I’ve been told that). I lead the conversation – if I’m not careful she feels inadequate and pulls away. If I am careful, I feel like a nice guy, grrrrrr. ………… Endless scenarios, nothing worked. At the end of the day we used to end up as friend having occasionally a crazy night out (just 2 of us), there was some sexual tension building every time, but nothing more. As there are not so many women of this type around, I could not afford to just move on and try the next one. After several failures, still have not figured out what the approach should be. Any ideas will be highly appreciated. Thanks. Leigh (LoGun) March 18, 2013 Ok, good to hear we’re on the right track here. It’s also good to hear that you’re so consciously aware of what you want. That’s really important. The issue that you seem to be having is that you’re confusing ‘nice guy behaviours’ with ‘what makes you a nice guy’. The thing that separates a nice guy from a confident and strong Man isn’t what he does, it’s why he does it. A nice guy compliments women so they’ll like him more and won’t abandon him. A Man compliments women because there’s something about her that he likes and he likes to see the way her face lights up when he tells her. A nice guy supports women so that they’ll support him in return and make him feel good. A Man supports women because he’s genuinely excited to see them succeed. I could go on here. There’s an article that covers this from a slightly different perspective here: http://www.attractioninstitute.org/the-difference-between-a-pua-and-a-naturally-attractive-man Obviously, it’s about PUA’s but it’s still about the same point of motivation over action. If you’re getting stuck in the friend zone, I would guess (without ever having met you or seen you), that it’s not your actions that are the problem. There’s something deeper. Have a read through that linked article and tell me your thoughts. alex March 18, 2013 Interesting article, I can say that I do most of what you describe as naturally attractive Man. One exception only – “A naturally attractive Man is independent and confident because he feels good, regardless of her response.” I understand what you mean, but I cannot feel good if I make her feel bad. I’m not saying that I would do this deliberately, but very often when I share details of my life the girls feel small and insignificant. I cannot and I do not feel good about it. On the top of this I broke coupe of hearts exactly because I did not want to engage emotionally, just had some fun (what I wanted). Did not feel good either. I’m not a senseless jerk. May be this is what you mean by “something deeper” – I’m afraid of escalating the relationship because she’s going to get hurt (eventually). Some sort of shrinking is going on here, do not worry, I do not mind:) alex March 19, 2013 Analysing further – yes, you are right, it is not about my actions. Even the opposite, being a Naturally Attractive Man definitely works wanders. It gives you power. The girls probably feel this power and realise the high risk there. As I said, they are usually very intelligent and self aware. As a result, we end up in a demilitarised zone (cannot describe it as friend zone – the sexual tension is still there), because we feel this is the best we can get, without a risk somebody to get emotionally hurt (potentially)… Any ideas how to break this pattern without having moral issues? Thanks. Leigh (LoGun) March 20, 2013 What kind of ‘moral issues’ are you talking about? It sounds like you have a plan but you’re letting your thoughts get in the way. alex March 21, 2013 Not exactly a plan, but what I want is to try a relationship and I know, (from experience) it is not going to be a long one. In the cases I have to break up with the girl (9 out of 10) I do not feel good. And I had two break ups so dramatic, I probably just do not want to try anymore… And to get back to my original question – how to get a mutual agreement on this “trial”. In fact what I want to say to a girl is – “Let’s have fun, sex and good time together for a while, then I’ll probably beak up with you and you have to accept this with a smile”. Can you say that to a girl? As I have not figured out how to communicate this, I’m often stuck in the DMZ. Leigh (LoGun) March 21, 2013 This is starting to drift off topic from this post. Can you post this up in the forum and we can take it from there? Nice Guy June 21, 2016 alex is right i think Mikhael April 8, 2013 Ok well this is probably one of the worst moments, at the moment I am on my staircase chain smoking, the girl I tried to be with had given me the excuse of “i don’t know right now, its not you it’s me, I need time to fix myself and idk about any further progress, she’s not sleepinalg in my bed like usual along with other notice signs that all is list. I feel I was being too much of a nice guy. Was too affectionate, started giving her gifts, always payed for outings. I’m ripping my sit right now because I really like this girl. It isn’t hard to see that itcountless’s over though… I’ve been walked over by girls my whole life and fucked over countless times. I admit to fitting in to all the characteristics you mentioned. I am the token nice guy and fear it has permanently fused with my personality. I need some serious help because I feel drained from all the bs and have nothing real. Reply Leigh (LoGun) April 11, 2013 Nothing is permanent mate. You brain is flexible and incredibly plastic. And if you can learn to be a nice guy, then you can learn to not be a nice guy. It’s all about learning. Do you know what you need to change to stop being a nice guy? Reply Enrique August 1, 2016 So basically to stop being a nice is to start being completely honest about what’s going through my head when talking with someone? Admiting that we don’t know it all and have many flaws? Marty July 9, 2014 LoGun, I was wondering if you could please address boundaries while dating . . . I have noticed my boundaries are fine when dealing with someone like my neighbour, whom I find annoying and fat, but when I am talking to a woman I feel attracted to I find myself ready to offer her things and do things for her. Why two sets of boundaries? What can I do about this? “Nice guys have no boundaries”/”Nice guys have weak boundaries” Reply John January 2, 2015 This article makes some good points. The article also makes some statements that are far from the truth. The statement, “She will never realize this because you aren’t in fact a nice guy. Appearances can be deceiving and the nice guy act is one of the biggest deceptions around.” is not true. It’s possible that the writer is basing this from her life experiences and that’s understandable, but I consider myself nice guy and don’t have some of the “traits” this article associates to being a nice guy. I’m not going to comment on everything mentioned because I’m tired and have work in the morning, but this needs to be said. 1. Nice guys avoid conflict. I avoid conflict if it’s beneficial in a particular situation. For example, a co-worker takes another co-workers stapler. In that situation, I wouldn’t confront the person about the stapler being taken. I would use an alternative solution, such as providing my stapler to the co-worker that needs it. Now, if this is a regular thing, that’s different. Avoiding conflict with the intent of postponing a situation that could get worse is not good. I always approach someone in a calm manner and if they get upset, I try to reason/compromise with them. 2. Nice Guys hold contempt for women. This is true for some nice guys. This is also true for some guys that aren’t nice. I accept life is not fair. Some are born with beauty and wealth. Others have to work their whole lives just to get half of what another inherited. Women use their looks and sex to get what they want. There’s still discrimination in the work place in which men get more money than women for equivalent positions (referencing the United States still being a patriarchy). I don’t think it’s right when I see old ugly men with beautiful women. The reality is that sex is traded for money. Both people get taken advantage of, but it’s a trade. 3. Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority. There’s nothing wrong about caring for others. I am able to help others. I’m very organized, which allows me to make time for that. Helping others does not hinder me as much as you may think. I still have my own priorities (school, exercise/health, work, family, friends, ect). 4. Nice Guys lack conviction in their opinions or beliefs. Nice Guys are dishonest. Yes, you are correct in a way. We don’t impose our opinion. Why? Because we avoid conflict. We are reserved and wait until we know what someone else thinks about the situation and then we reply appropriately. This doesn’t mean we don’t take a stance or have conviction in our beliefs; it’s just that we get a read on the situation first until we a comfortable sharing. If we’re comfortable sharing or don’t have enough support behind our opinion, we’ll tell you what you want to hear. 5. Nice Guys lack loyalty. Nice Guys give to get and expect some kind of reciprocation. This is so far from the truth. My friends tell me that I’m unlike most people. I keep in contact with friends just to see how they are doing and I go out of my way to help them with whatever they need whenever they need it, if it’s possible. This does not only apply to women. This does not only happen in public around other people. I do a lot of volunteer work that goes unnoticed and has no benefit to me besides raising my self-esteem knowing that I helped a person/family out. I help others without compensation. I help others without expecting things in return. You won’t find that in a lot of people, but there are some in this world. Maybe you just haven’t met that type of person yet. You might not even know if you did because I don’t brag about my accomplishments, volunteer work, or helping people. The only reason I’m mentioning it in this comment is to backup what I’m saying. 6. Nice Guys are full of rage. Nice guys keep thoughts to themselves. Nice guys are taken advantage of so much, you don’t even know. It’s difficult seeing other people get what they want by being disrespectful. It’s upsetting that people think there’s a hidden agenda behind nice guys being nice when there’s actually not. People can’t just accept that person is genuinely a nice guy. When we’ve had enough of people not using logic, then yes, we let the rage out. Everyone needs to vent once in a while. 7. The attitude of it’s not worth being nice and trying to please everyone because no matter what, no everyone is going to like you… is negative thinking. You say nice guys seek approval. I see it as helping others to help me. I don’t need someone’s approval. I also don’t need everyone to like me, but no one in their right mind enjoys creating enemies. Being jealous of others having what I want is true, but the concept of judging others is not valid. My actions are me just being nice. I wouldn’t say judging others, I would say I feel sorry for them. What’s funny is that your tips for changing. I already say no to people, have my priorities in line, and am honest… yet I’m still a nice guy. I’m not going to change who I am when I know what I’m doing is right. I understand why women are attracted to bad boys and oh well. If women gave nice guys a chance, maybe other guys would change their ways. Do you honestly think this world would be better with no one being nice? Reply skyblue19 February 10, 2015 A self-proclaimed nice guy liked me, followed me around, and seemed like he wanted to be my friend. After two months of us hanging out, he confessed his feelings. I told him that I didn’t feel the same way. I never let him pay for me, but because I’m new to the city, I didn’t have transportation so he drove whenever we went somewhere. Also, from the first day he met me, because I feared he might get the wrong idea, I told him that I was into someone else. Well, after I said no to his advances, he got mad and started making rude jokes at my expense, which he never did before. I told him that I didn’t want to be friends anymore. So we ignored each other, which was fine, until he told our mutual friends that I hurt him. Two friends, both girls, have decided that I was in the wrong and now ignore me. How do you deal with women that judge other women for rejecting nice guys? Reply Nickolaidas April 23, 2016 My opinion is that he said more than his side of the story. He probably presented it in a way that made you look like an utter bitch, and I’m surprised at your comment that your mutual friends took his side. Women have a good intuition for those things, so either those girls were never your friends to begin with, or there’s something about this story you’ve yet to mention. Reply Noah August 2, 2015 Hi. I’m 16 and I consider myself to be a prime example of a “Nice Guy”. Here’s my question: Is it possible to be a “Nice Guy” at this young age? Or do you think I’m just making excuses for my unsatisfactory personality? I fit all of the criteria above and I’m planning on taking the 30-day challenge, but I wanted a second opinion on this. Thank you, Noah Reply steve October 15, 2015 way too nice already… say ‘fuck it I’m doing this 30 day challenge for me’ Reply Nickolaidas April 23, 2016 My opinion (I just stumbled upon this site eight hours ago, having just read the free PDF – Seduction Community Sucks) on the matter: There are two types of Nice Guys. A) Guys who are nice because being nice makes them feel better about themselves (that’s the single motive they have) B) Guys who are nice because they want to make people like them, because they feel they don’t have anything to offer as human beings other than their ability to do favors and errands, because they’re afraid of rejection, etc., basically, they are the ones the article covered. In my point of view, the part where the article is wrong is where it’s placing all nice guys in the B category, while I believe there are type A nice guys. The guy who saves a man’s life in order to get invited into his home and meet his gorgeous sister is type B. The guy who buys some food for a beggar and gives it to him without anyone baring witness to the deed is type A. I’m ashamed to admit I was, am, type B. I’ve always tried to do services to other people, especially women, in the hope that they will be attracted to me. I recently read a couple of articles (this one included) that made me realize how utterly wrong I was. I hit rock bottom when I volunteered to download 200 episodes of TV series for a woman who had me blocked on FaceBook for years now, because I was desperate to please her. And I had the utter gull to ask myself “What is wrong with me? Why don’t chicks like me?” I’m in the process of changing my perception of the world, things, people, and myself. I don’t know where the journey will take me, but I think it will be an interesting ride. Reply Brian June 25, 2016 You’re wrong on so many levels. Get a real education. You’re a complete idiot and although you got a few things right, most everything else sounds like you’re used to writing political bashing articles for the Enquirer. Go back to school and stop spreading lies, drama queen. Reply Renko October 5, 2016 I hate when people blatantly call someone wrong but omit any justification for doing so. If you believe they’re wrong, do tell us why and what you would do instead. Reply Chu Kem October 20, 2016 They say that nice guys finish last, and guess what? They do. If you’re going to move forward with a woman, you need to learn some tips to stop being Mr. nice guy. Without knowing these things, you are going to get left in the friend zone forever. If you’re interested in a woman and you want to get with her, you will need to shake off the stench of being just “nice”. If you do that, you will get with her and stay with her. This is something that takes a bit of time, and it’s going to give you the upper hand as you more forward through the dating world. Reply Cam October 26, 2017 Hi all. Unfortunately after reading Endgame I too have discovered that my issue with relationships is because I am a nice guy! But I have a twist in my recent relationship history. I recently split from a controlling wife after a long marriage. I let her get away with shit for far too long. Recently I met a amazing woman who has been in 2 long abusive relationships. Things were awesome at first. She was so into me. But she’s the type of girl that wants to be told what to do. Exact opposite! I was playing it cool until I fell for her a few weeks ago. She’s been away for about 2 mths for work but we have kept in touch. She’s coming back home this weekend but has already told me that she wants to move to the place were she worked at for good. I fear that this is going to be her excuse to call it off. I feel that I have told her that I want her too much and I haven’t shown her that I will stand up for what I believe enough. Its been hard as we mostly have communicated via sms lately. My problem is that I am unsure of when it is appropriate to make a stand. She’s already said that she doesn’t like drama so I don’t feel like I want to make it. Leigh, how do I show her what I believe in without causing a drama all the time? Also you say that you should tell them how you feel. How do you do that without looking needy? I am lost. I want to just be myself but I know that if I be myself I come across as a nice guy? Is there any recovery from my current relationship? Any help is greatly appreciated. Reply Oshoke March 18, 2018 I am so glad I discovered this article early in life ( just 14 ) and I display all these traits but I am also willing to change for the better not just for getting girls but for a better and more satisfying life. 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